As time permits, I like to answer interesting questions posed by my Patreon supporters. Here’s one that’s come up a few times over the last few months.
Who would you cast as suitors for Khorvaire’s most eligible bachelor, Prince Oargev ir’Wynarn?
Oargev ir’Wynarn is the last son of Cyre’s ruling family. He was serving as an ambassador to Breland when the mysterious disaster befell his nation and has since become the unofficial leader of the Cyran refugees scattered throughout the other domains. He hopes to one day gather all of Cyre’s homeless children to this refuge in Breland. His other desire revolves around discovering the truth behind the destruction of his kin and country, and exacting revenge on the guilty parties. Until then, he graciously accepts the hospitality of Breland (even if the Brelish have given him unwanted land in the middle of nowhere) and works to rebuild the confidence and honor of his subjects. He serves as mayor of New Cyre while also playing the role of a king in exile.Eberron Campaign Setting
Though young, Oargev is already a widower. His wife was lost on the Day of Mourning while Oargev was abroad. Oargev must take a new wife if the Cyran branch of the line of Wynarn is to endure. The prince, now twenty-five years of age, is both charming and gallant, and the coming social season is sure to be lively as both the families of Cyre and the nobles of other nations try to woo this dynamic leader.Five Nations
In talking about Prince Oargev, an important first step is to resolve contradictory canon. Canon sources disagree on everything from Oargev’s age to his alignment to his class (notably, presenting two different sets of statistics for Oargev in the same book, Five Nations). Personally, I prefer Five Nations‘ first choice—NG aristocrat 2/bard 2—reflecting an optimistic idealist with raw artistic and arcane talent, both things Cyrans admire. But the more significant contradiction is his age and parentage. Forge of War and the 4E ECG both describe Oargev as the son of Queen Dannel ir’Wynarn. But his original mention in the 3.5 ECS simply describes him as “the last son of Cyre’s ruling family”—and Five Nations calls out that he’s young, 25 years old as of 998 YK. By canon, Queen Dannel became Queen of Cyre in 943 YK… meaning that she had been RULING Cyre for thirty years when Oargev was born. If we consider parallels in our world and cast Queen Dannel as Queen Elizabeth II of England, I’d personally cast Oargev as a young Prince Harry, not Charles; he was one of Dannel’s grandchildren. He is the “last son of Cyre’s ruling family,” not the last son of Dannel herself.
So for purposes of this article, Oargev is young—25 as of 998 YK. He’s idealistic, “charming and gallant“; he “hesitates to betray” his allies, and believes he’s doing what’s best for the Cyran people. He’s charming and artistic, being appointed to serves as a wartime ambassador when he was only twenty years old. He’s a grandson of Queen Dannel. Who were his parents? Honestly, I don’t care. It could be fun to create a story about his parent’s tragic relationship and how that affected him growing up, or to suggest that Dannel herself was jealous of the popularity of one of Oargev’s parents, or something like that. But I don’t like getting too deep into the weeds unless I’m actually telling a story in which those facts MATTER. The most important details are that Dannel was Queen of Cyre on the Day of Mourning and that Oargev is the last scion of the royal family; if you feel a need to fill in additional details about the Cyran royals, go right ahead. Which brings us to the next important question…
WHY DOES THIS MATTER?
Why does anyone CARE who Oargev is dating? What possibly relevance could it have to an adventure you might run? It’s a valid question. As I mentioned with Oargev’s parents, I don’t like adding obscure details unless they’re going to actually matter in the story that I’m telling. So why could Oargev’s love life matter in your campaign? Here’s a few possibilities.
The Legacy of Cyre. One of the simplest, basic backstories for a group of Eberron adventures is former Cyrans. Whether you were soldiers who served together or patrons of the same lost tavern, shared Cyran background is an easy way to forge a bond between a group of characters and to justify a group of wandering adventurers; your homeland was destroyed, and all you have now is the bonds you build. This in turn brings us to New Cyre. If you have a group of Cyran adventurers—or even just one influential Cyran within your party of adventurers—then New Cyre matters. As a Cyran your nation has been destroyed and your people scattered to the winds. New Cyre is a nexus for Cyran refugees, a place where your people are struggling to maintain your culture and to rebuild your nation. In a party with one or more Cyran adventurers, one question I’d ask in session zero is what are your ties to New Cyre? It’s the largest assembly of Cyran refugees… does the character have any family or friends in New Cyre? Do they want to see their nation reborn or have they turned their back on it?
If the adventurers care about Cyre or New Cyre, one possibility is for Oargev to serve as their patron—as described in more detail in the Head of State group patron presented in Eberron: Rising From The Last War. Adventures can be driven by the ongoing interests of Cyre and by the investigation of the Mourning or the Mournland. New Cyre itself could serve as an adventuring hub. If you follow any of these ideas, than Oargev’s relationships matter. Oargev’s spouse will shape the direction of his life and ambitions, and these in turn will shape the future of New Cyre and the potential of Cyre reborn. Do you want to see Oargev with someone who will fuel aggressive ambitions to rebuild—or seize—a new Cyre? Or would you rather see him with someone more conciliatory, who will focus on the security and well-being of the refugees even if that means abandoning the idea of Cyre reborn? Are you worried about your prince becoming a tool or a puppet of malign forces? If so, you should care about his suitors.
A Horse in the Race. Even if the adventurers have no ties to Cyre, they could have a connection to one of the suitors. Are they working with the Citadel? Perhaps their contact asks them to look out for Heydith. Are they part of House Cannith? Maybe Idara is an old friend. If they’re warforged they could have ties to Rose, or be interested in their agenda. If you really want Oargev’s choice to matter, get one of the player characters in the race! This is especially appropriate for a player character with the noble background; are they personally interested in Oargev, or is there pressure from their family to pursue the match? This could easily combine with having Oargev as a patron, as the adventurer tries to win his heart while helping enact his agenda. This is a story for a particular type of player, but if you have a player who wants to pursue the prince, it could be fun!
The Draconic Prophecy. The Draconic Prophecy revolves around the interaction of prophetically significant people and events. It’s a simple matter to assert that Oargev—let’s call him the Last Prince—is a prophetically significant figure whose choice of spouse will have cascading consequences in the Prophecy. Depending on the importance of the outcome, you could have disguised rakshasas or dragons in play trying to influence events, or adventurers working for the Chamber could be told you make sure Oargev and Haydith fall in love! A key point is that if the Prophecy requires that Oargev and Haydith fall in love, the Lords of Dust can’t just brute force the answer (using dominate or replacing Haydith); if the Prophecy requires them to fall in love, they will have to legitimately fall in love for it to qualify.
The point here is that you could have a part of adventurers who has no interest in Cyre whatsoever but who are working with the Chamber (or the Lords of Dust) in pursuit of the Prophecy and who are directed to play Cyrano and to meddle in Oargev’s romantic affairs… or if they’re more interested in protecting New Cyre, they could run afoul of the disguise rakshasa pulling strings.
Phiarlan Presents: The Prince. If your adventurers have no interest in Oargev or Cyre, you could still throw in his romance as a source of comic relief. House Phiarlan is building up its crystal theaters—theaters that use scrying tools to tune into distant entertainment. Phiarlan is building up a repertoire of crystal programming, and they’ve settled on The Prince. They’ve helped assemble the team of potential matches for Oargev, and each week there’s a series of crystalized trials that help the Prince narrow down his choice. People are following the drama across Khorvaire, and each adventure NPCs could be discussing the latest twist or elimination. Meanwhile, in exchange for going along with this circus, Oargev is getting Phiarlan’s support for New Cyre… both financial support and access to their more secret services.
So there’s a number of ways to make Oargev matter. If the player characters are Cyran, Oargev’s choice could determine the future of their people. If the adventurers are dealing with the Prophecy, it could be a key point they have to push in a particular direction. And if they don’t care at all, it could still be a funny story unfolding in the background of the campaign! Which suitor will receive the Purple Rose of Cyre?
WHO ARE THE SUITORS?
As with so many things in Eberron, my immediate reaction is who do you want them to be? Because ultimately the question is always what’s going to make the best story. I don’t have time to come all canon sources for eligible young nobles, or to come up with a comprehensive list of the eligible heirs of every noble family of the Five Nations. So what I’m going to provide here isn’t in any way a comprehensive list. Instead, it’s a few examples of suitors, highlighting how that suitor could have an interesting impact on a story. As a DM, you should definitely expand this list to include your own favorite canon NPCs or new characters you create. There may be dozens of competitors on the field; I’m just calling out a few I’d use in MY campaign.
- Haydith ir’Wynarn, Princess of Karrnath. Following the Treaty of Thronehold, King Kaius III and King Boranel agreed to an exchange of hostages—each sending members of their family to live in the foreign court. Haydith is Kaius’s younger sister, and she’s said to have become quite popular at court. Nonetheless, she’s far from her home and friends, a stranger trying to make her place in Breland just as Oargev is. I could see Haydith having true feelings for Oargev, sympathizing with his immense loss (“Most of my friends are dead too. Or undead.”). In my campaign, Haydith is about 20 years old (a shift from canon) and is a brilliant, sharp-witted gothic princess—a blend of April Ludgate and Wednesday Addams. She’s currently a pawn in Boranel and Kaius’s game of Conqueror, and she wants to change the game; if she ended up with Oargev, she’d push for him to do something truly unexpected.
- Rose. A unique warforged envoy, Rose given to the Cyran royals as a gift from House Cannith, and served as a companion to Oargev’s sister Marhya. The Princess died in the Mourning, but Rose survived years in the Mournland and rallied a community of warforged survivors who still dwell in the Mournland. In presenting themself as a suitor, Rose notes that both they and Oargev are leaders of a people with no recognized homeland; Cyre has been lost and the warforged have never had a true home. Rose has a vision of warforged and refugees working together to rebuild a new Cyre where both are full and equal partners. Whether this means undoing the effects of the Mournland or simply reclaiming it as is, Rose is passionate about creating a new future for both their people. Needless to say, the marriage of a noble and a warforged is unprecedented, and there’s the obvious question of an heir; but Rose dismisses such concerns, believing that if they can find a way to create a new Cyre, they can find a way to create a family. Where the Lord of Blades advocates separatist aggression—the warforged building their identity apart from humanity—Rose seeks to bring two lost peoples together, peacefully building something stronger than either would be alone. If player characters are either Cyrans, warforged, or both, they may have an interest in Rose’s agenda.
- Lady Talalara is an Inspired ambassador from Riedra, recently appointed to Oargev’s makeshift court in New Cyre. Riedra is offering economic assistance, but Talalara is offering something more—promising to train a new generation of Cyran psychics, helping Oargev’s people unlock power they could potentially use to reclaim Valenar or Darguun or to create a new nation for his people. And if this proliferation of young psychics also served as an excellent cover for having more quori hosts on Khorvaire, so much the better.
- Vestige is a changeling with a gift for adopting the forms and personalities of people who’ve died. With Oargev, he often adopts the form of the Prince’s late wife, allowing Oargev to spend more time with his first love; he also adopts the personas of others lost in the Mourning, allowing Oargev to consult with his father or speak with his sister. Vestige serves as a medium, believing he brings peace to both the living and the dead by giving people additional time. However, he also maintains his own identity; as consort he would expect to be identified as Vestige, and to forge a new Cyre that is especially hospitable to changelings, both settled changelings and the Children of Jes. (Note that Vestige’s gift is a form of divine ritual—sort of like Speak With Dead, but instead of having a piece of the body he has to go through a short seance-like ritual with someone who remembers the person who’s persona he will assume. Vestige can then assume the deceased person’s form and is guided by their memories. A skeptic could assert that Vestige is actually just telepathically drawing on the living person’s memories of the deceased; the DM will have to decide whether Vestige can access memories of the dead they never shared with the living anchor.)
- Ilina Corla d’Cannith. Scion of a powerful family, Ilina dreamed of being matriarch of House Cannith. But the Corla line were entirely based in Eston and Making, and the Mourning wiped Ilina’s lineage from the face of Khorvaire. She has refused to align herself with any of the three Cannith factions that have formed since the war; instead, she has remained with Cyran refugees, and has played a vital role in building and maintaining the infrastructure of New Cyre. There’s quite a few ways Ilina could go, depending on the shape of the story. She could only be interested in helping the refugees. She could be seeking influence that would make her a valuable asset to whichever of the three Cannith factions she ultimately allies with. Or she could be taking a more dramatic third option—suggesting that she could rally excoriates and foundlings and reclaim Cannith facilities in the Mournland, building a new Cyre that directly wields dragonmarked power beyond any of the houses. Depending on which path you follow, she might be happy to renounce her family name, or she could be determined to test the limits of the Korth Edicts—after all, since Oargev holds no lands at present and she is acting independently of the house, is it really defying the Edicts?
- Siiana of the Kapaa Dor. Siaana is a champion of the Kapaa Dor clan of the Ghaal’dar hobgoblins. She recognizes that Darguun began with an act of betrayal (albeit reclaiming land taken from her people long ago) and hopes that her union with Oargev would be the bridge to reforging Cyre and Darguun into an entirely new nation where human and goblin could move forward together in peace. With that said, the Kapaa Dor are old rivals of Lhesh Haruuc and his Rhukaan Taash, and Siiana certainly recognizes that forging her new nation would involve breaking his.
These six examples are all quite exotic. As Five Nations calls out, Oargev is also surrounded by the scions of the surviving families of Cyre, along with other nobles of the Five Nations. Shaela ir’Ryc, Jalene ir’Tala, Donal ir’Kulan, Isti ir’Dalas, and Habra ir’Soras are five such heirs. One of them’s a mind seed of the Dreaming Dark, one’s part of a cult of the Dragon Below, one’s a warlock bound to an archfey, one’s fiercely devoted to the Silver Flame, and one’s tied to the Three Faces of Love; it’s up to you to decide which is which. Some say that Oargev maintains a correspondence with Queen Diani of Thrane, another monarch whose domain isn’t all that she wishes it was. But again, all of these examples are just a place to start; the important thing is to think about the story you want to tell and the role the suitor has to play in it. Should they find bliss with Oargev, how will it affect the possible future of New Cyre and its people?
Because of everything going on in my life at the moment, I will not be answering questions on this topic. However, if you’ve used Prince Oargev in your campaign, who have YOU used as his suitors? I’d love to hear your ideas and stories in the comments!
I personally explain away Haydith ir’Wynarn’s canonical age of 15 as her mother having been petrified mid-pregnancy, and located and restored only several years later.
This opens a lot of fun hooks. Thanks, Keith.
I had Oargev as a patron to a group of Cyran PCs in a game, one of the PCs had been his friend growing up. The game dissolved before things got far off the ground, but Prince Oargev has always been one of my favorite nobles.
I included Cyra ir’Tain as a possible romantic option. Daughter of Celvria ir’Tain of the famous ir’Tain galas. Figuring out exactly what happened to the missing Lord Dalian ir’Tain is the key to her heart.
I’m doing my own version of Red Hand of Doom, using Eastern Breland as the setting. I also have Eastern Breland being a Grand Duchy before the Last War (where the duke died and the region was directly taken over by the military since it was the major front in the war). Oargev’s suitor in my campaign is Lady Loretta Ir’Alton, she is a city councilor of Starilaskur and a descendent of the last Grand Duke. The idea is once the battle is over, the Oragev is leading the city and the rest of Easter Breland that have fled to Starilaskur because the rest of Breland is in Civil war. He will use it as an opportunity to claim Eastern Breland for himself and marry Lady ir’Alton. Thus he will have a claim to the area through his wife and he will popular support because “he” saved the region for a rogue hobgoblin warband.
In a game that fell apart before I got that far the intention was to reveal that Kaius had named Oargev as heir, at least until an heir was born to him and Boranel sort of backs this up on the condition of Oargev taking Haydith as his consort (he likes the young noblewoman’s spirit). This was in a story assuming that Kaius was working towards a larger picture which would see him ascend the Throne of Galifar Reborn, with Oargev as Prince of Karrnath in the end.
Not necessarily a question for Keith as he’s busy but if anyone else has the answer, I may have even asked this at some point and forgot, do we have a canon age for Kaius III and for Diani? A Cyran knight I played in one game took to calling Kaius the “Boy King” due to his relative youth compared to other rulers . . . ignoring that he’s either slightly younger, the same age or slightly older than Oargev, of course, and I was wondering if anyone ever finds the Kaius who shows up in all the art oddly “rugged” for his age? And I had previously waffled between Diani being youngish and being a regal woman of middle years, which is more accurate?
Canonically Kaius the 3rd is 27. He married Etrigani on the 2nd anniversary of his crowning in 993, and was crowned at age 20.
I had the same question with Diani. Given that she has been Queen for 10 years according to Five Nations, she is presumably at least 30, as Kaius was crowned when he turned 20. In my game, she is in her early thirties, old enough to be considered experienced and regal, but young enough to be Khorvaires most eligible bachelorette.
Given the lack of political power the thranish throne has, she could have been crowned earlier and without a regent aswell. Might make something to bond with Jaela over.
“after all, since Oargev holds no lands at present and she is acting independently of the house, is it really defying the Edicts?”
I prefer this one from the other side: If “Cyre no longer exists”, is he even truly a noble anymore or just a mayor with interesting backstory?
I always thought the main reason Oargrev is interesting is that he holds the strongest claim to the Wynarn Throne. After all despite the war the Cyran claim IS the strongest and Oargrev is the only one left to continue this claim. Anyone who believes they have a chance at reuniting Galifar might be interested in Oargrev for that reason, because by joining bloodlines they improve their claim.
Yes, that’s a theoretical claim (and one a dragonmarked house might utilize later), but right now?
Indeed, at the moment Oargev is an interesting mayor. That’s why most of the people on my list are people making long-shot bets to advance desperate causes. The only representative of one of the Five Nations on my list is Haydith, and Kaius isn’t encouraging her; she’s acting on her own initiative. Rose wants to work together to rebuild the Mournland. Vestige isn’t sure where Oargev will end up, but wants to make sure that place is friendly to changelings. Siiana knows that if the Kapaa Dor want to challenge Haruuc they’ll need outside help, and is offering land not currently held by any of the Five Nations. The Cyran nobles are simply making sure that their family is in the best position within the Cyran community, whatever becomes of it. Queen Aurala has been firm in her position that Cyre is no more, so I don’t see her having any interest in an alliance with Oargev. Likewise, I suggested the Kapaa Dor as representatives of Darguun because I can’t imagine Lhesh Haruuc being willing to acknowledge that Oargev or Cyre have any claim to Darguun; like Aurala, he’d want to hold firm to the fact that Cyre is no more.
If I understand correctly, noble titles are uniformed across all 5(4) nations, so, yeah, he IS pretty much still noble in the eyes of people.
I recently introduced Kristaer ir’Thavar, half-elf daughter of an architect who was helping design and fortify New Cyre until the homeland can be reclaimed.
Her interest in Oargev is genuine but she also sees an opportunity to help her family recover from their losses after the Mourning. Depending on the players actions it may be revealed her family line has the potential to manifest a lost dragonmark, helping or hurting her chances.
I love that you wrote this. I’ve literally run romance based campaigns with Oargev and Haydith before (albeit not together), so it is cool to see your take on them. And that you also aged Haydith up to the same age I did.
And hang in their Keith. Thanks for everything you do.
I ended up starting this game not long after I asked the question the first time! It’s got elements of The Prince, but with the Wayfinder Foundation PCs as contestants.
– Queen Diani ir’Wynarn
– Fernando, a Cyran Bard the PCs had encountered prior
– Prince Aejar of Breland
– Roe Farwynd (from Dragons of Eberron)
– Malcolm ir’Foy (obnoxious/antagonistic villain they’d run into before)
– Helkashtai (Inspired the party has dealt with before)
– Alzia ir’Kesslan (Sister of King Sebastes of New Galifar – canon deep cut from PgtE)
– Baraka ir’Dollen (Cyran noble heir of Dollen on the River)
Of course, some of these faces are just covers, but I don’t want to find out if my players read the comments XD
My PCs include a warforged, a ghaal’dar noble (who, unlike Siiana, has a family that is a close ally of Lhesh Haruuc), a Sivis, and a bloodsail.
I love all these examples but i am left with a searing question. Given the dire situation of Cyre and its nobility (especially the royalty) would they resort to polygamous marriage in a similar vein to the anime “How a Realist Hero Rebuilt the Kingdom”?
In How a Realist Hero Rebuilt the Kingdom:
As for succession in terms of royalty, polygamy is allowed, and it is common for the king to take multiple wives, either to insure that the royal bloodline continues, or for political reasons. As such, the wives can either be Primary or Secondary Queens, depending on their status. For example, Liscia Elfrieden, Aisha Udgard, and Roroa Amidonia all come from royalty, knighthood or nobility and therefore became Primary Queens to King Souma. As a result, any children they have are eligible for succession to the throne.
Keith addressed this in https://keith-baker.com/dm-nobility/
> In most of the Five Nations, marriage doesn’t convey title. This stems from the principle that only a Wynarn can rule; when the Wynarn monarch dies, their consort has no claim to the throne. Often, a noble consort is granted a courtesy title, as seen with Queen Etrigani of Karrnath; but if Kaius III were to die, the crown of Karrnath would immediately pass to his eldest heir, not to Etrigani. This principle generally holds throughout the ranks. Someone who marries into a royal family is a consort. They may be granted a courtesy title, but they are not the equal of their noble spouse and it is up to the DM to decide if their status is sufficient to justify gaining Position of Privilege. This would largely depend on public perception: do the nobles and common folk respect the consort? While many nobles limit themselves to a single consort, this isn’t enforced by law. A monarch could have multiple consorts, and the child of any official consort would be considered an heir. There was a lengthy period in which it was accepted tradition for a reigning sovereign to have a consort from each of the Five Nations, in part to spread out the burden of producing five heirs. In the wake of the Last War, some of the nobles have continued this tradition—Kaius III of Karrnath maintains harem, though only Etrigani carries the title of queen. On the other side of things, Queen Aurala of Aurala has a single consort, but has not granted him any title.
Wow, what an amazing article. I had toyed with the ideas of putting the Prince around the draconic prophecy. The players had heard of the prophecy (related to the forge of war magic item set : war regalia of Galifar), met a dragon who told them about it and decided to change the circonstances so the prince wouldn’t fit the prophecy. So it prevented his death at the dragon’s hand.
The players were reallly invested.
I was really hoping for some more MLM ships for Oargev. Maybe it’s just my perspective but I always read him as at least bi if not only gay.
Seemingly like the whole world is obsessed with which woman he has a blood related heir with feels like a real interesting story to explore.
I feel like in a more “traditionally romantic” situation this would matter, but in a setting where monarchs are expected to marry to produce issue and forge alliances, and not for love, this seems neither here nor there.
Oargev may be in love with some other man, but if he’s intending to create an heir to carry on the royal line of Cyre, his consort just needs to be able to produce an heir. It’s why Rose here is interesting from a story perspective, but “romance” just isn’t a thing for royals in a way that is interesting, at least to me, as a player.
I’ve personally run a game in which Kaius III is actually himself and not his grandfather, and he and Oargev WERE romantically involved (they have a remarkable amount in common, as it stands). And that flavored their interactions, especially in the presence of PCs, but was not the focus of anything.
I feel like in a more “traditionally romantic” situation this would matter, but in a setting where monarchs are expected to marry to produce issue and forge alliances, and not for love, this seems neither here nor there.
Yes, that’s largely where I was coming from. Personally, I think Oargev is pansexual, and if this was a DATING game I’d have made the list more diverse. But I was assembling this list based on the Five Nations statement that “Oargev must take a new wife if the Cyran branch of the line of Wynarn is to endure“. Vestige identifies as male, but as a changeling is capable of producing an heir. Rose is certainly the dark horse who’s challenging the importance of an actual blood heir versus creating something entirely new. But as I said, this list is just a starting point and should be changed or expanded to fit the story.
I appreciate that you included the gay adjacent suitor of Vestige. All the other suitors identify as female, including the warforged, so it was nice to have at least one suitor identify as male.
Certainly. In the list of Cyrans, Donal ir’Kulan is also male. While “Rose” is a feminine name, Rose doesn’t identify as female; I didn’t specifically call it out, but that was my intent in using they/them pronouns in their description. As noted in another comment, this list is mainly driven by the pressure on Oargev to produce a Wynarn heir and by potential alliances; I’d expect Oargev’s dating/true love list to be considerably more diverse. Vestige is capable of producing an heir; Rose is a very dark horse by virtue of being warforged, but that’s intended to be a discussion.
If he falls for Rose or Vestige, there is always adoption if a strict bloodline is not required.
If it is, then the person Oargev loves does not have to be the person Oargev has sex with to make heirs.
Was not aware it was Kanon that Changelings could give birth to / sire human children. Wasn’t aware that Changelings were that cross species compatible. That would really mess up my mental image of Changeling brothels as being the only safe place to have sex and NOT risk getting someone pregnant. Since it seems humans cannot make out with ANY species and not have half-something result.
Was not aware it was Kanon that Changelings could give birth to / sire human children. Wasn’t aware that Changelings were that cross species compatible.
It’s not just kanon, it’s canon! Races of Eberron specified that changelings can reproduce with any humanoid. I go deeper into it in this article, but it’s always been out there. Something that’s specifically kanon (directly contradicting RoE) is the idea that a changeling can easily abort an early pregnancy by shifting its reproductive system… So your mental image is still safe, because it’s the work of a post-coital instant for a changeling to make sure they don’t get pregnant.
If he falls for Rose or Vestige, there is always adoption if a strict bloodline is not required.
There’s definitely going to be pressure on Oargev to produce a direct heir. Five Nations calls out that he has to if “the Cyran branch of the Wynarn bloodline is to continue” and elsewhere we’ve discussed the superstition that the Wynarn bloodline is blessed by Aureon. Oargev is already on pretty shaky ground as a king without a country; assuming he manages to reclaim some form of Cyre, it’s likely Wynarn rivals would refuse to recognize adopted heirs—Galifar’s blood doesn’t flow in their veins. On the other hand, fighting against such superstition is part of what would make Rose, Siiana, or Donal interesting stories. (Vestige could produce an heir, but I don’t know of any canon or kanon examples in Eberron of humans and goblins being compatible.)
Personally I would expect that humans and Goblinoids are as compatible if not even more than humans and elves; especially given the (in setting) colonial history of Khorvaire. I can imagine the half-goblinoids being treated practically the same as other Goblinoids by the humans and i’d expect a begrudging respect of some sort from the Dhakkani Tribes.
If Half-Goblinoids truly exist then How would the Dhakkani treat them? Would they accept them as equals or see them as traitors?
If Siiana becomes a consort would her potential children be subject to prejudice by the other Royal lines? or would they even see prejudice by the Dhakkani?
On the subject of half-goblinoids, I’d refute the suggestion that merely due to humans oppressing goblins they can breed.
As to what the Dhakaani would think of such half-goblins I’d say the answer is pretty clear. Most of the Kech Dhakaan are noted for strong animosity to non-goblins, some even to non-Dhakaani goblins. Any non-goblin is certainly not a citizen of the empire, with the Kech Sharaat putting all non-Dhakaani to the sword as their end game.
As to the Guul’dar, the people of Darguun, I can imagine if a human/goblin child was viable the captive South Cyrans or Thrane captives from the battle of Cairn Hill would have known by now . . .
“On the subject of half-goblinoids, I’d refute the suggestion that merely due to humans oppressing goblins they can breed.”
My assertion was based on that it would be exponentially more difficult to colonize a populated area without genetic compatibility. Not to mention that lack of compatibility would increase the severity of any hatred between the groups to potentially genocidal levels due to competition for resources.
I would expect that the Non-Dhakkani Goblinoids have high rates of sterility compared to their Dhakkani counterparts.
And personally I have no doubt that Hobgoblins would be the most “compatible” of the three main goblinoid races.
Personally I would expect that humans and Goblinoids are as compatible if not even more than humans and elves; especially given the (in setting) colonial history of Khorvaire.
Conversely, that’s why I assume that they’re NOT compatible. Humans and goblins have shared the continent for thousands of years, and goblins are found in most major cities—typically in greater numbers than elves or orcs. If humans and goblinoids were compatible, I’d expect half-goblins to significantly outnumber Khoravar and half-orcs. In my campaign Khoravar and the Jhorgun’taal are unusual exceptions and most humanoid species aren’t reliably compatible or produce sterile offspring (changelings being another exception, but changelings are specifically compatible with almost any humanoid species). Even when it comes to half-orcs, I prefer the idea that it’s ORCS who are remarkable, not humans—that orcs have the ability to reproduce with many other species, and that “half-orcs” aren’t necessarily orc/human, but could be orc/goblin, orc/shifter, orc/dwarf, etc. But in my campaign, a goblin/human hybrid would be remarkable and probably sterile… which is a challenge for Siiana and Oargev.
I think that half-goblins and half-Bugbears would have high rates of sterility and low rates of viability in the first place. But the main exception to that assumption for me is the Hobgoblins.
Would it be reasonable to have the Curses that effected the goblinoids during the Fall of the Dhakkani empire be partially to blame for the wide-spread low compatibility? And if that’s the case would it be to much of a stretch to say that a Dhakkani Hobgoblin would be compatible?
(I kinda like the idea that Dhakkani goblinoids are more compatible but in a dark case of irony less accepting of such “half-bloods”)
(This way the over whelming majority of Half-Goblinoids are rare, likely sterile, and to a degree outcasts)
I expect it would be in the interests of the other Wynarn families to prevent Oargev from producing a direct heir, so they may well be clandestinely supporting Rose and/or Vestige.
What if….I really like Rose’s backstory and goals, and who doesn’t like changelings? If changelings can mimic the look of a warforged AND get pregnant, it would be so much fun to have all three of them fall in love. Vestige pretends to be Rose and gets pregnant, while Rose stays out of sight for 9 months. While it would be a great Traveler joke to be an 8 month pregnant warforged, I expect True Sight or what ever would have found them out almost immediately.
Great Artciel Keith! Oargevs love life actually is a Thing in our game. I have a player whos PC is a bard from a rich Cyran family, and because the player loved Bridgerton, there now is a gossip pamphlet in our Eberron. Obviosly, the love life of Oargev, as well as Queen Diani, are much discussed there, with my PC being one of the speculated possible matches for the prince. Funnily enough, I also have both the Diani and the Haydith connection on my mind as well. With Diani, Khorvaires most eligible bachelorette, and Oargev being on absolutely platonic but good terms, partly because his current status as a Prince without a kingdom does not really match her political ambitions. (More politically benefitial matches include the Archduke of Thaliost, a Prince of Valenar, and Jorlanna d’Canniths favorite nephew). And then Haydith kind of just sneaks into the picture, with both of their connections to Breland and Boranel specifically and the two meeting a lot. As you see, a lot of romance in the game, because two of my players love the drama and matchmaking
I have not given Oargev a suitor in my campaign, but I have introduced a sister named Kari ir’Wynarn. She was found in the Metrol, and no one can explain how she was able to survive, least of all herself given her mental state at the time. The only clue they have is that the creatures of the Mournland give her a wide berth, for unknown reasons.
I also used Haydith in the same story, when Breland and Karrnath started plotting about the changes this sparked in New Cyre and The Mournland. She was very different from your version though. Now you’ve got me thinking again. Thank you, Keith.
My current favourite suitor play for Prince Oargev is High Prince Rygar: both have claims to the throne of Galifar with Oargev’s being more legitimate and very difficult to claim by force, and Rygar’s being much less likely to be legitimate but he has a massive navy and can enforce his claim. A union of the two prevents both from claiming it seperately and Rygar has islands that are abandoned or run by enemies that he is more than willing to offer up as home for displaced Cyrans if his proposal is accepted. My players have been mercenaries for Rygar trying to accomplish tasks to win Oargev’s favour, becoming more and more difficult with tasks like recovering items and lore from Cyre all bankrolled by Rygar.
I can definitely see those opposing Haydith courting Oargev making a rumor that Haydith is a vampire, and in truth the supposed dead wife of Kaius I (who could be named Haydith I)
Would a aundairian noblewoman be a suitable suitor given the cyran/aundair politics at the end of the war? Say a ir’Lain, a nephew of Darro.
I don’t use Oargev currently, but I will be reskinning these suitors as potential consorts for a certain Soldorak clan member who’s grandmother insists be in a stable married relationship before the year ends!
Should we not acknowledge the Oargev depicted in “The Fading Dream” as “kanon?”
Or why not a harem like Kaius?
I like the political angle of the Reidran Ambassasor being a suitor for Oragev, adds to the potential of an Reidran foothold on Khovaire. The Inspired could also bankrolling the Cyrian Independence movement in Brelish elections.
The Karrnathi princess could be along similar lines. Khovaire is similar to the nation state era of Europe when royal marriages were about alliances.
I love how engaged the discussion has been! So many ideas…